[Paul F.]

Couple of dealers selling Black Talon ammo on GunBroker at $100 box or 10 boxes (500 rounds) for $800! Who would have ever thought it would come to this? :roll:

p.s. There all boxed as Police Ammunition... wonder which of these guys is the departmental armorer? :wink:

 

[Pistolero]

It is my understanding that the Winchester Ranger Talon is the exact same cartridge as the Black Talon, just renamed and repackaged in a different box.

 

[Paul F.]

Yes, I think you are correct... but isn't it ONLY available to law enforcement? :shock:

 

[TheRedScare]

Hey what a deal!!!


:lol:



Isnt starfire ammo almost the same as BlackTalon?? Glazer, Magsafe, and Hydrashoks performed better on 1 shot stops anyways.

 

[Seaark1660]

Please......Big bucks for talons? Any good hollowpoint wil do the job.

I'm partial to GoldDots myself.

The "one shot stop" based on caliber and bullet construction is more myth than fact. Placement is the key.

 

[Paul F.]

Seaark, I carry a 1911A1 and have never had a problem or seen a problem putting down, even with ball ammo. With pretty regular use, in country for three years and in other situations... I can say that placement is the priority; however, combat situations do not always leave the luxury for well-placed-shots. :wink:

That said, have you ever seen Talons compared to other rounds in gel tests? If you had, you would realise that there's no comparison, on a percentage of expansion and mass retention. That's why they are still sold in great quantity to law enforcement. :wink:

I'll never pay that price for them... but will always be on the lookout for comparable ammo.

 

[Seaark1660]

Gel tests do not accurately represent actual wound trauma. In fact there are several groups in the medical field that are trying to come up with a better medium for testing purposes. One is even trying to develop new testing medium an attempt to measure hydrostatic pressure inside the body. A whole lot more variables go into a real world event vs. gelatin blocks.

I do firearm forensics for a living and I've seen bullets do a lot of strange things.

 

[TheRedScare]

Actually Black Talons only perform well in the crush cavity category. In the stretch cavity other rounds like Hydra Shoks perform better.

Top 3 Real Street Results for "1 Shot Stops" from autopsy results following a single hit to anywhere in the torso to a human in any condition. Many were during a police action. Taken from Stopping Power by Evan Marshall & Edwin Sanow.

.45 acp
#1 Hydra Shok 230gr
Total shot 173 Total stops 166 Percent 96
#2 Golden Sabre 185gr
Shot 83 Stops 80 Percent 96
#3 Gold Dot 230gr
Shot 45 Stops 42 Percent 93
4,5,6,7,8,etc...
#9 Black Talon 230gr
Shot 96 Stops 84 Percent 88


Hey Seaark1660

I should have been clearer. I meant any 1 shot to the torso per Even Marshall and Ed Sanow. 1 shot stops are no myth according to Marshall and Sanow (Unless you are talking about Fuller index stops). They went and proved it by using autopsy reports for their stats and nothing else.

 

[Paul F.]

Well, I am not a ballistics expert nor a forensics expert. My experience is that one shot, based upon caliber and bullet type, is pretty accurate - unless you consider a .22lr hollowpoint equivalent to a .45 Hydra or Talon. My experience comes from field use and from being married to a wife who heads DETROIT's primo Level 1 Trauma O.R. and has nearly 20 year's experience patching the bad guys and victims up. :wink:

I guess it really doesn't matter... as one uses what one is comfortable with. I don't want Teflon bullets for anti-personnel... I want monster expansion and shock.

 

[Seaark1660]

Guess I was a bit misunderstood.......

What I'm getting at is don't rely on some of the test results and what is written in a book. I've seen a lot of BS in ink.

Anything you carry is a compromise at best. It's those compromises that people have opinions on. You plan for the situation you are likely to encounter......what actually happens isn't always ideal with what your plans were and what equipment you have in your hand.

You hit the nail on the head when you said you carry what you're comfortable with.

 

[Paul F.]

I see... yes, a misunderstood point. There's no sense arming an idiot with Black Talons and an Expert with Ball Ammo and expecting the edge goes to the idiot. :wink:

Good exchange... thanks. Get's one to thinking about their own "philosophy".

 

[uglydog]

Getting back to the availability of Ranger/Black Talon ammunition, Winchester only sells it to distributors of law enforcement equipment. Some of these distributors also supply non-law enforcement shops and will sell some to good customers or as a promo. Plus, clearance wholesalers get some through various means, CDNN Investments has had a supply of 155 gr Ranger STX for the past several months. The ammo is out there, one just may have to do a bit of searching to come up with it. Ranger/Black Talon commands an undeserved premium in price compared to the rest of the market; Oh, the joys of free advertising and a bad boy image.

 

[TMats]

Black Talons are, of course, the infamous "cop killer" bullets. I can't believe that there are people out there gullible enough to spend $100/box thinking they're buying a magic bullet.

"There's a sucker born every minute."
P T Barnum

 

[billym9]

black talons are a rip.....your just paying for the image....they are she same exact thing as the ranger sxt....i carry 147gn 9mm ranger sxt and they have the same 6 petals as the black talons... sxt stands for Same eXact Thing....if you spend 100 bucks for a box of black talons ill sell you a box of ranger sxt that i painted black for 80 bucks...now thats a deal...ha....by the way there are only a couple places you can buy the rangers, i got mine at a gun show for $18 a box of 50....make sure if your buying the rangers that they have the 6 petals, some are just normal hps that are in a ranger box...not the sellers fault but winchester i beleave labled the normal ones as rangers as well for law enforcement.....6 petals, silver color case