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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All,

I have a new MKIII Hunter that I've had to the range twice now. The first time out I put about 300 rounds through it without much concern for how well I did. I took it out yesterday and put about that many rounds through again but I don't understand something.

I was shooting at 15 yards and decided to see if I could tell how well the sights were aligned. So, I used a bench rest with a small sandbag they had there and used it to steady my hands while holding the gun. Doing this, I was pretty consistantly high and left of the bullseye. I adjusted the elevation a couple clicks and that brought everything down so that I was grouping to the left. The part I don't understand is what happened when I tried to adjust for windage.

While my groups weren't exactly tight, the center was obviously about 2.5 inches left of POA before I tried adjusting for windage. Starting with two clicks, I kept adding more offset until I was at about 5 clicks total and the center of my "group" was about 1" left of POA. By now my rear sight was significantly offset to the right when looking at the gun. I decided to give it a go like that and stood back up to shoot without the bench rest.

I was immediately grouping 2" to the right of POA on average for a full magazine. Now, I can understand that my body position was very different while standing and that might explain why things changed when I stood to shoot. What I don't understand is what happened with the next magazine, and the ones after that. I suddenly started grouping to the left of POA again while still standing. At this point, I realize that I'm the problem rather than the sights but I don't know what I'm doing to get these results.

Have I given enough information for anyone to make an educated guess as to what I need to do differently?

I'm right handed and using a two handed grip with my left hand kind of underneath and supporting so both thumbs are on the left side of the gun. I'm standing with my right leg slightly forward and trying not to tilt my head or the gun. I keep my left eye closed. My best guess is that I may be gripping the gun differently each time I pick it back up after loading the magazines.

Sorry this got so long but any advice will be much appreciated...

-Chris
 

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When you're shooting off sandbags, put your wrist(s) on the bags, and let your hands and the handgun be out in free space ahead of the bags.

If I had a nickle for every time I've told somebody to get their handgun OFF the bag, I'd be rich.

As you have discovered, the recoil characteristecs (and therefore the point of impact) are very different for a handgun rested on a sandbag and a handgun supported by your hand(s).

The magazines are not an issue.... the gun either feeds and fires, or it doesn't. You need to get a consistent grip, and put the pad of your finger on the trigger.... not the first joint (as most folks naturally do).

The wandering impact is likely due to tiring muscles..... even though there's no recoil or blast to contend with, your muscle control deteriorates during a long range session. Weight training with a set of 2-1/2 or 3 lb dumbbells works wonders. Even for someone in pretty good shape, handgunning uses a set of otherwise seldom used muscles. Plus, it demands steadiness rather than motion, as when lifting or moving something, which is what we usually do.
 

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Shooting offhand - especially if you will be shooting with one hand, as in Bullseye competition - is affected tremendously by small "sympathetic" movements that the fingers of the shooting hand make as the trigger is pulled. Learning how to minimize/eliminate those movements takes a lot of practice.
What you describe is not unusual. The advice that you have been given in the earlier post is precisely correct. Fatigue in a long session (and 300 rounds is a VERY long session) will cause both vertical and lateral drifting.
There are illustrations of targets - from the NRA, I believe - that tell right or left handed shooters what needs to be corrected if shots from a correctly sighted pistol consistently group away from POA.
The good news is that, if your shots continue to form a single recognizable group (as opposed to being all over the paper), you are probably doing only one or two things that need to be corrected.
Pete
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the advice. Someone on another board posted the chart showing likely problems when you are missing the bullseye in certain sections of the target. I played around with some dry firing and noticed that I was consistently pulling the gun just a little to the left when squeezing the trigger. I ordered a new sear and trigger just for the heck of it and I'm going to do a lot more dry fire practice to get better at not disturbing my site alignment.

I didn't get to shoot this weekend but I'm hoping to go next Sunday for a couple hours.

-Chris
 

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Practice. That's the ticket. Take your while doing it also; maybe think in terms of 100 rounds in a couple of hours, as opposed to 300.
On paper, it's the simplest set of actions: Stand still, hold the gun, align the sights, then move ONE finger and nothing else. If you can do that 60 times, you can go to the Olympics.
Pete
 

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Re: re: Problem sighting in new MKIII

darkgael said:
..... Stand still, hold the gun, align the sights, then move ONE finger and nothing else.......
Kinda like telling a new skeet shooter, "Shoot where the bird's gonna be by the time the shot gets there."

Very, very true..... but darn hard to learn without some good instruction.

If you're doing it without an instructor, here's a link to about the best pistol instruction on line:


http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapterf.htm
 

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Another common mistake overlooked is:

Don't forget to raise your ARMS up to sight level with the eye, DO NOT bend your neck or lower your head down to the sights, you need to bring the sights up to the eye level...

Also, proper finger placement on the trigger as well.
 

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Re: re: Problem sighting in new MKIII

Wow, I'd forgotten how awesome the Bullseye Encyclopedia was.

iScream said:
and I'm going to do a lot more dry fire practice to get better at not disturbing my site alignment.
-Chris
Dryfire is awesome, and I do a ton, often daily, so please don't misinterpret this, but...is the Mark III dryfire-OK? Rimfires tend to be more susceptible to damage from dryfire than modern centerfires. It probably says one way or the other in the manual, but some snap caps (not dummy rounds, so the A-Zooms are out) are cheap insurance.

Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: re: Problem sighting in new MKIII

Bunnyman said:
Dryfire is awesome, and I do a ton, often daily, so please don't misinterpret this, but...is the Mark III dryfire-OK? Rimfires tend to be more susceptible to damage from dryfire than modern rimfires. It probably says one way or the other in the manual, but some snap caps (not dummy rounds, so the A-Zooms are out) are cheap insurance.

Cheers.
You actually have to dry fire it during normal maintenance procedures. There is a pin incorporated into the firing pin to prevent contact with the breech during dry fire. On another forum there is an example of the stop pin being deformed after excessive dry firing though. I'll probably get some snap caps or dummy bullets to use during dry firing practice, just to be sure.

-Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: re: Problem sighting in new MKIII

wwb said:
darkgael said:
..... Stand still, hold the gun, align the sights, then move ONE finger and nothing else.......
Kinda like telling a new skeet shooter, "Shoot where the bird's gonna be by the time the shot gets there."

Very, very true..... but darn hard to learn without some good instruction.

If you're doing it without an instructor, here's a link to about the best pistol instruction on line:


http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapterf.htm
Yep, I've been through every chapter on that site, as well as a couple other sites and I've learned a ton of stuff. A good example is holding my breath after exhaling rather than after inhaling. It makes sense to me now but I always just assumed it was the other way around. Another one is concentrating on sight alignment more than where I'm holding on the target and focusing on the front site.

Just those two things made an immediate difference between the two times I've been to the range so far.

-Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: re: Problem sighting in new MKIII

xd.40 said:
Another common mistake overlooked is:

Don't forget to raise your ARMS up to sight level with the eye, DO NOT bend your neck or lower your head down to the sights, you need to bring the sights up to the eye level...

Also, proper finger placement on the trigger as well.
These are things I need to work on. The trigger finger placement is a big part of what I need to get worked out through dry firing. I've already started trying to make sure I don't tilt my head to one side or the other but I think I've probably been bending my neck down a little.

-Chris
 

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iScream,

This is rather LONG, but this is what we teach.

Also, here are a few links to sort of help with problems you might have.

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/sear ... l/Shooting

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2005 ... tions.html

http://www.tackdriver.com/pix0703/correction.jpg

http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/grp-analysis.pdf

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm

Stance
Use the modified Weaver/Isosceles stance.
The Weaver for the Lower body, and the Isosceles for the upper body.
Whatever stance you use, it must be versatile, aggressive, and you must be prepared for action or movement.

To obtain your stance:
a. Place your feet shoulder width apart (strong side foot about 6 inches to the rear). (iScream, This means YOUR RIGHT leg to the rear) such in a fighting stance.
b. Your feet should be flat on the ground with your knees slightly flexed, not locked.
c. 60% of your weight should be on your front foot.
d. Keep your head and body erect while you raise the firearm to your line of sight.

Sight Alignment
1. Sight alignment is the relationship between your rear and front sights.
2. Correct sight alignment results when your rear and front sights are level at the top and your front sight is in the middle of your rear sight, with an equal amount of light on either side.
3. Focus your eyes on the front sight. Think FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT

Sight Picture
1. The sight picture is the added third element of the target; rear sight, front sight, and target.
2. Your rear sight and target should be slightly out of focus. Remember, bring the sights to your eyes, not your eyes to the sights.
3. If you can sight with both eyes open you achieve a greater field of vision and reduce eye strain. Your dominant eye does the actual sighting. If you have trouble focusing with both eyes open, train your closed eye by first squinting it until you can relax your eye to the open position.

Trigger Control
a. Place your finger on the trigger between your tip and first joint, never behind your first joint.
b. Do not touch the frame of the firearm with any part of your finger.
c. Use a long, steady squeeze of the trigger for slow aimed fire.
d. Watch your front sight. Control the firearm movement.
e. Continue the amount of pressure and speed you started pulling the trigger with until your trigger breaks and the hammer falls.
f. Always remember to follow through by pulling completely through until the shot. After firing hold the trigger back until your front sight is on target again.
g. Reset the trigger.
h. Remember, your finger is your primary safety. Remember the Cardinal Safety Rule TFOOTG.
 
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