reolds said:
I just read the 45 protection load posting and need no further data. I'll stay with factory and the 92% level.
Protection Loads for 44 Mag
Does anyone have any real life info on protection loads? I have checked the Marshall stats and would like to see if I can beat the 92% level for factory loads and get closer the 98% level afforded by a 357 with 125's.
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I just read the 45 protection load posting and need no further data. I'll stay with factory and the 92% level.
Didnt they also state that they thought the .44 data was not representative? I think they also expected it to outperform the .357 125 semi jacketed hollow points. I use .45 hydra shocks and .357 125...
Not to mention, if...God forbid, you ever had to use reloads for self-defense...Their Lawyer will begin to drool once they find out you used "home brewed killer ammo"
I'd stick with factory anything for carry/HD ammo
8)
I'd stick with factory anything for carry/HD ammo
8)
I agree with the poster on handloads for for personal defense loads!......the slick lawyers will eat your lunch!
Now.....This question of protection loads also apply to dangerous game!
We should open up a discussion based on actual use also based on actual experience, and not speculation, on handgun loads for dangerous game......James
Now.....This question of protection loads also apply to dangerous game!
We should open up a discussion based on actual use also based on actual experience, and not speculation, on handgun loads for dangerous game......James
Dixie, I liked your idea of actual experience.
reolds and all......There is far too much speculation today as what consists of a safe /caliber/bullet load in handguns for dangerous game.....period!
I class it as hot gas that will get someone hurt......or killed!
The problem is the hype put out by the rag writers and those that just "think" something will work!
There are some dangeous game, like wild hogs, that can be safely hunted with the proper caliber, bullet type and weight, and with controlable recoil.
Unfortunately, we get into a "head" thing today......"Mine is Bigger Than Yours! - I call it "penis sysndrome!" I see them every day...packing a handgun they could not control to defend themselves if they had to! There are some dangerous game animals that all you need to carry is a 2" 38 Special.....to blow out your brains as the animal is eating you!
Now.......Maybe, just maybe, we can have a discussion, based on actual experience on selecting a firearm for protection.....James
I class it as hot gas that will get someone hurt......or killed!
The problem is the hype put out by the rag writers and those that just "think" something will work!
There are some dangeous game, like wild hogs, that can be safely hunted with the proper caliber, bullet type and weight, and with controlable recoil.
Unfortunately, we get into a "head" thing today......"Mine is Bigger Than Yours! - I call it "penis sysndrome!" I see them every day...packing a handgun they could not control to defend themselves if they had to! There are some dangerous game animals that all you need to carry is a 2" 38 Special.....to blow out your brains as the animal is eating you!
Now.......Maybe, just maybe, we can have a discussion, based on actual experience on selecting a firearm for protection.....James
James are you of a mind to start a new topic?
My take for dangerous game is my 7mm Weatherby or 338 Winchester. I don't know about you, but I somewhat recoil insensitive and down right chicken to boot.
My take for dangerous game is my 7mm Weatherby or 338 Winchester. I don't know about you, but I somewhat recoil insensitive and down right chicken to boot.
reolds and all.....I think there has been enough large and/or dangerous game killed with rifles that the knowledge of what to use is well established. The problem is in handguns! I have preached controlibilty for years and get flamed for doing it. Most shooter/hunters today do not have the time......or just do it!.....to spend learning to control excessive recoil.
We can start a topic on handguns for dangerous game if the group wants it.......but it should start at the very core of handgun bullet designs and build out to the conclusion.......James
We can start a topic on handguns for dangerous game if the group wants it.......but it should start at the very core of handgun bullet designs and build out to the conclusion.......James
To an extent, I agree. A great many hunters are shooting hand cannons from which they will never get a second shot on target. To me, it began with the .44 Mag Rugers and went in a spiral, upwards, from there. I see .500's and cringe.
I've never had a problem with .45LC and have taken deer, bear and damned big hogs. For me (and I think we agree) the key has been bullet design and weight. :wink:
I've never had a problem with .45LC and have taken deer, bear and damned big hogs. For me (and I think we agree) the key has been bullet design and weight. :wink:
Being new to handgun hunting, I for one would like a good discussion. My experience with handguns is in bowling pin and paper. Following on, I have very limited esperience with two wild dogs, a rabbit, and a mangy MD whitetail. So any help from an experienced hand is welcome. 
I think if we are going to do an in-depth study/discussion on hard cast handgun bullets......we need to go back to about 1956 when the .44 Mag.Ruger Blackhawk came out and work our way forward. To really understand the pros/cons of hard cast, we need to understand how we got to today's designs and why. If this is what the group wants, that will be what we will do.....James
Controlling the gun / and effective fire is the key in my opinion. If you want to kill game cleanly - and efficiently -you need to practice with the same load you intend to hunt with. Personally a .44mag with a factory load 240gr - is a very effective weapon. I enjoy shooting it on the range - and I've carried it often in the woods fishing and hunting - for bear etc.
But it's not a gun / load that someone who doesn't have the hand / arm strength to control ought to try and use effectively - nor should any of us use unless we practice with it. Even though I'm a 'senior' I'm still 6'5" and 260 lbs so handling that gun has never been a big issue with me - even with an 8 3/8" barrel which I prefer in a S&W mod 29 revolver.
But it's not a gun / load that someone who doesn't have the hand / arm strength to control ought to try and use effectively - nor should any of us use unless we practice with it. Even though I'm a 'senior' I'm still 6'5" and 260 lbs so handling that gun has never been a big issue with me - even with an 8 3/8" barrel which I prefer in a S&W mod 29 revolver.
I completely agree that controlibilty is the single most important factor in handgun hunting. The velocity craze has run away with handgun size/bullet design. Many will not agree, but their are bullets for the .44 Magnum in the 240 gr/265 gr at a velocity of 1200'/"/1400'/" that will kill clean anything that should be hunted with a handgun. In the .357 Mag....the 180 gr hard cast heat treated large maplat and the 180 gr. jacked bullets.....have moved that caliber way up the stick. The old tried and true .45 Colt with a resonable modern load still knocks them over dead!
Again and Again!.......controlibility!......James
Again and Again!.......controlibility!......James
I must agree with weeg, when I went through the CCW class to get a concealed carry license the instructor said never ever use anthing but factory ammo, not cooked up hot loads or upside down hollow base wadcutters, or mixed shells with FMJ then hollow points, he said if anything happened and you had to do anything, in the aftermath just say "I just wanted him to stop" and just be very careful and dont let your mouth run away with itself.
I would like to see proof that reloads have EVER lost a case in court when used as personal defence of ones family, to go further show where it was ever a major issue in a case decided in a US court of law. This started with a rag writer for one of our good mags making a case for himself as such a expert in handgun defence, BS, he may be a very able instructor of self defence, but sucks as a curb stone attorney to advise shooters. If you are still doubters check out NRA, Gun Owners of America, and other well informed forums. No where has this disinformation been confirmed. We have better ammo SOLD by many company's today than ever before, however I would put my faith in my reloads put together one at a time, than an assembly line operation, much like the auto plants, for my personal safety, you figure. "BETTER TO BE JUDGED BY 12 THAN CARRIED BY SIX". My rant, and open to discussion.
Jim
Jim
Re: re: Protection Loads for 44 Mag
Been in this discussion on other forums and in bull sessions at the gun club...... as far as I know, NOBODY has ever produced documentation that reloaded ammo was a factor, either pro or con, in a shooting case. Those who have first-hand experience will tell you that the sole question is whether or not the shooting was justified.jim n iowa said:I would like to see proof that reloads have EVER lost a case in court when used as personal defence of ones family, to go further show where it was ever a major issue in a case decided in a US court of law........
Wasn't this case actually involving factory ammo? As I recall, the defendant was using a marketed self defense load and claimed the event took place at close range. The prosecution "re-enacted" the event with a generic commercial loading and had stippling results that were different from the original testimony. On the stand, this info was used to impeach the defendants testimony and was a large factor in his conviction. On the appeal, ammunition bearing the same lot number was found and the test repeated. Here it was found that the stippling matched the defendant's testimony and the conviction was overturned.
The point that was being pushed, as I understood, it was not that reloaded ammo would convict you, just that it is not able to be replicated as factory ammo can be which may lead to problems in the defense. If the correct factory ammo would have been used, the trial and especially charges may well have been avoided which is the real objective as even an acquittal can break a person financially not to mention their reputation for years.
Factory produced items have a legal standing that our homemade items do not, even if we implement our own lot numbering system. As was brought up in the article I read regarding this incident, how many prosecutors would allow the defendant to make his own evidence for his own behalf? It still requires a judge to make the final decision but I'd guess what that would be, after all, how many are former prosecutors and how many are "liberals" that are not keen on the ownership or use of firearms?
As far as reliability is concerned, I have had many more recalls on components than I have had on factory manufactured ammunition. Including any and all misfires I've seen with factory ammo, the component recalls still outnumber them. I have not had a misfire with recalled components (sometimes I've used some/all of them before receiving the recall notice) but there was some reason for the recall and that was a potential reliability problem. Odds are either will fire when needed, I just like the idea of me or my survivors having a financial alternative with the factory ammo.
In the end, it is up to the individual to make the decision for themselves. Mine is for factory loadings for a variety of reasons, others may choose their own for a like number of reasons.
The point that was being pushed, as I understood, it was not that reloaded ammo would convict you, just that it is not able to be replicated as factory ammo can be which may lead to problems in the defense. If the correct factory ammo would have been used, the trial and especially charges may well have been avoided which is the real objective as even an acquittal can break a person financially not to mention their reputation for years.
Factory produced items have a legal standing that our homemade items do not, even if we implement our own lot numbering system. As was brought up in the article I read regarding this incident, how many prosecutors would allow the defendant to make his own evidence for his own behalf? It still requires a judge to make the final decision but I'd guess what that would be, after all, how many are former prosecutors and how many are "liberals" that are not keen on the ownership or use of firearms?
As far as reliability is concerned, I have had many more recalls on components than I have had on factory manufactured ammunition. Including any and all misfires I've seen with factory ammo, the component recalls still outnumber them. I have not had a misfire with recalled components (sometimes I've used some/all of them before receiving the recall notice) but there was some reason for the recall and that was a potential reliability problem. Odds are either will fire when needed, I just like the idea of me or my survivors having a financial alternative with the factory ammo.
In the end, it is up to the individual to make the decision for themselves. Mine is for factory loadings for a variety of reasons, others may choose their own for a like number of reasons.
I will still reload for personal protection. To answer the original question, I some times carry a 44sp 2" in my jeans back pocket loaded with 210g sthp mid range load in decent weather times for protection. In the winter I load same with 240 fnl hard cast bullets. (hp bullets can really slow down when it encounters heavy thread winter clothing). When hunting in the field, I carry a 4 5/8" sbh loaded with 250g fnlgc loaded in 44 mag warm for back up. Use the same load on a scoped 7.5" RH for most hunting. In Urban area's a 210g- 240g hp will handle most problems. Hard cast is not a good defence round to fire in multiple family dwellings as it will go through the walls.
Jim
Jim
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