[Old_Codger]

Does anyone have experience shooting a Glock 23 40 S&W loaded with Mag Safe Ammunition? We live in a Manufactured Home Park where walls are thin and the houses close together. I'm looking for an effective, reliable, round for home defense, that is less likely to go through my neighbors house. I have a 20 ga. but would like to keep the Glock loaded as a backup.

 

[ColoradoKid]

I am of the opinion that almost any fired round in 40 S&W will pemetrate a wall as you have described it and maybe enter your neighbors walls. Mag Safe is represents your best shot at accomplishing your stated goals. What you need to do is get some instruction on safe gun storage etal and keep your finger off the trigger ...unless the "BG" is coming through your front door...!!

 

[ColoradoKid]

I am of the opinion that almost any fired round in 40 S&W will pemetrate a wall as you have described it and maybe enter your neighbors walls. Mag Safe is represents your best shot at accomplishing your stated goals. What you need to do is get some instruction on safe gun storage etal and keep your finger off the trigger ...unless the "BG" is coming through your front door...!!

 

[john1911]

There is no "magic bullet". Any bullet that will penetrate enough to stop a bad guy, will penetrate several walls. In the end, it's your job to place your bullets on target.

You basically have two choices:

1) Use a good hollow point bullet with proven expansion, something likely to stay in the body. Put the bullet on the target.

2) Use a gimmick bullet that may not effectively stop an assailant. Use the use of this bullet to cover for poor marksmanship.

 

[WDBradley]

As already expressed, first practice a lot and hit what you aim at. There isn't a good round that will not pass through thin walls that is right for personal protection. The best defense is a well place round.

 

[xd.40]

Agree with everyone else, Practice a Lot.

Check out this website. Has a lot of great info and test done.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

As always, Stay Safe.

 

[Old_Codger]

Xd 40
The Box of Truth was good information. I also agree that practice is #1, but I know that even an expert marksman may not always hit their target in a combat situation. Especially moments after waking up from a sound sleep and adrenaline pumping through their body. No magic bullets, but maybe some better choices.
I'm still waiting for someone to answer my original question.
"Has anyone fired MagSafe Ammunition from a Glock 23?",
I'll order a few rounds and let you know what happens.

 

[xd.40]

Sorry about that, My appologies, First things First, Welcome to the Forum.


Now, First off, the Glock 23 is a great choice to have, as far as the magsafe rounds, I personally have not tried their ammo. If I was to use them, I think I would buy some first, shoot a bunch to see how Your pistol likes it, (each gun is different) and go from there.
You always need to know what your target is, and beyond it as well. For those times in the middle of the night, you want to know who and what you are shooting at, and for what reason. Therefore, practice practice practice.
I personally carry Federal HST in my .40, Another good round is the Speer Gold dot. Or any Hallow point for that matter.
Get yourself a GOOD Flashlight to see what or who the threat is in the middle of the night. You can do a search here on this forum, there is an Extensive research done on any and almost all flashlights. Here is the link.
http://www.pistolworld.com/bbs/viewtopi ... flashlight

I understand your not wanting to shoot through walls and into another home, (I Pray that will never happen) but like I've said, I have never shot or fired one of the magsafe rounds, so I don't know how well they will cycle the slide, if at all. I think I would rather trust my life, and the lives of my Family to a good personal defense round. That being said, we All need be alert and aware of our surroundings at all times, even if it is being suddenly woke up in the middle of the night.
I can't stress enough about practicing though... even if it means you and the Misses (with an unloaded weapon of course) :wink: practice laying down and suddenly getting up to uncertain noises, clearing the house, room by room. I practice clearing my house when no one is home probably a couple times a month just to keep in practice.

I hope this has helped a little bit, but to be honest, I don't know if I would ever use that ammo. Just my $.02 worth.

Please do keep us updated if you buy some, I would like to know how they perform. Again, Sorry that I couldn't help.

As always, Stay Safe.

 

[WDBradley]

I don't own a Glock but to better understan your question I bought some Mag Safe rounds. I shot the 20 rounds in a FNP-40. At 10' I had a 6" spread, at 25' I had a 14" spread. No jams or mis fire. All the same the effect on target was less than the norm Jhp and for me the spread was far more than expected. I shot another 20 Jhp and at 10' hit a 2" spread and at 25' hit a 5" spread.

In my opinion the Mag Safe rounds are under powered for a reason but also lack the ability to place the rounds at close range in a consistant group and lack the stop power to drop a bad guy with a single shot and like the first round the second or third round can't be counted on to hit certer mass consistantly.

My own test but if if I was trusting my life or my family's I would use a standard Jhp and expect I hit what I aim at and know if I do that the round is going to stay in the person and not rip through thin walls.

My advice is practice so you hit what you aim at, a safer round might prevent you from shooting a neighbor but it won't keep you safe. Might seem simple but you need to be able to hit what you aim at otherwise you shouldn't pull the trigger.

 

[xd.40]

WDBradley,

Thank you for posting your experience with these rounds.
This confirms why I am a firm beleiver in a quality JHP round.

As always, Stay Safe.

 

[WDBradley]

Re: re: Safety Ammo?

WDBradley,

Thank you for posting your experience with these rounds.
This confirms why I am a firm beleiver in a quality JHP round.

As always, Stay Safe.

Your more than welcome XD-40, I like trying new ammo as you never know when someone will come up with the next best thing. I email Mag safe with my thoughts and the response was "when using a new/different amuntion the shooter needs to allow reasonable practice to be profiecent". Not something I've had much of an issue with in the past and something I can normally correct with in a few rounds at the range but I couldn't with this round. I fired all rounds slow in my best stance.

Who knows maybe Old_Codger will have better results shooting the round than I did. I look forward to his resluts to know if it was just me or it is the round.

 

[UncleFudd]

Hey guys;

It has been a long time since I posted or replied here but in reading this thread it reminds me of test that I too have done with the different ammos and for different and varied reasons.
Having the range and doing a LOT of training over a very long time, (since 1978) I have seen a lot of ammo come and go. Some have stayed around and some have even been modified to become excellent ammo after dismal beginnings.
One question that comes up in nearly every conversation in the past many years is or has to do with Mag Safe and its abilities to stop BGs.
I'm not kidding the question(s) have been around since they began making and marketing the ammo and I am not sure there has ever been a Pat answer but if I may I will tell you some of what I found while playing with it over the past 20 years.
I have tried it in nearly every configuration of firearm from revolvers to semi autos. Safe actions to single actions and it really comes down to what XD40 wrote, check any ammo that you are going to use in defense of your life or the life of your loved ones in the particular gun you plan to use said ammo in at any given time.
Ammo may perform or not in any gun even of the same model.
Example, I have a 1911 a Kimber Pro Carry and you have the same exact model.
I want to use X brand ammo of a certain grain weight. I will take said ammo and run a whole bunch of it through my gun, this particular gun to be absolutely certain it will function without a failure under as many difficult positions as I can create. Once I am certain or as certain as I can be then I will use that ammo. Even though you have the same exact model, you should do exactly as I have done FIRST run the ammo you are going to use through your model.
My recommendation just as XD is to check every or any ammo you are going to bet your life on in the gun you will use under those dire circumstances. period.
Something else that is kinda being bandied about is the power or the ability of these rounds to penetrate deep enough into the body to stop the intruder or to cause him enough discomfort to go some place else to play.
In my professional opinion, they do not and will not or at least there is serious doubt in my mind. I have some pictures of a man shot in the A$$ with the mag safe ammo and it barely penetrated through the levis into the cheek. I also did some of my own tests using a side of Javolina (PIG) that was too tough to eat.
I shot several different loads of Hp ammo as well as Mag safe out of varying barrel lengths to see what if any difference it made in penetration.
The mag safe ammo would barely penetrate the hide and no more than 1/4 to 1/2 inch into the carcass.
The Fed Hydra shock and Gold dot and Golden Sabre were the most formidable wound cavities.

But to the question at hand and in particular with the Mag Safe ammo, it is not an ammo I will ever load my self defense guns with and bet my life they will stop or dissuade an intruder under the best of circumstances.

I know this has become quite long but just for the record and again this is only the ramblings of an old man who knows no more if as much as the rest of you. But I did considerable testing and posted many months ago on this forum all of the major HP ammo in use today in low light and or dark conditions to see what if any effect they had out of short barrel guns on night sights or night shooting and follow-up shots.
If you do not remember and or if any of you are interested in the outcome of that testing I would be happy to once again post the results here for everyone to see.

But again, XD40 and WDBradley are absolutely correct in saying the best possible solution is to pick the gun you will use at all times, the ammo you will use for self defense and then practice with it under as many difficult situations as you can possibly think of and do it as often and as many shots as you possibly can to become as good as you can possibly be and then the rest is in the hands of God.
But remember also as they pointed out, the best possible defense is the very best offense. harden your perimeters. Make your home look so difficult to approach and change what you do every day to make it difficult if not impossible to get a pattern of your activities and then you will be surprised that you will never be a target of anyones' threats.

Hope this helps as it has for my students for the past 35 years and all of them are alive and well as far as attempts on their lives.

Unclefudd

 

[xd.40]

UncleFudd,

Welcome back Sir.

Thank you for the Clarification on this ammo, as WDBradley
has done also.
After you mentioned it, I do remember that you did a post on "self defense ammo" and on several different types of ammo. I can't recall if you tested the Federal HST or not, as this is my primary carry ammo now. I went through several boxes of the hst's just to see how my XD liked it, and she ate it all up... (now i'm going to have to go back through the old post and see if I can find your posting of different ammo).
I was carrying Federal Hydra-Shok for the longest time (many years), but have since switched to the Federal HST. Wild hair I guess...but I Really liked the results of the HST's done on these ballistic test. Both the HST's and the Speer Gold Dot's came out on top.
Here is a link to those ballistic test.
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

Again, Welcome back.

As always, Stay Safe.

 

[UncleFudd]

Thank you and I appreciate the opportunity to post for those who not only recognize the value but truly appreciate the info even though it comes from a pruny.
I did not test the Fed HSTs at the time, but most of the other popular hollow points including the Hydrashock.
the wound cavity from all were impressive and would not be in my opinion survivable in the major body cavity.
The other thing that I was looking for specifically was the muzzle flash produced from short barrel guns including 2" revolvers and semi autos up to the 5" 1911 handguns.
In every case including the 357 with 158 gr corbon ammo there was not enough muzzle flash from any of the popular self defense ammos to cause problems with follow-up shots.
This is so critical to all of us when you think that we may have to pull the trigger at o dark thirty. We know we must hit our intended target, but it may be imperative to get off additional shots and even if not we must be able to see our threat at all times, including when and if he is down.
I spent a lot of time with these tests and even filmed the flashes from every round and to say the least the powder and ammo manuf have done some incredible R&D to give us the quality and power that we now get from handgun ammo.
I realize as do you all that handgun deaths are still relatively low compared to rifle or shotguns but the newest of the SD handgun ammo will give you the best penetration with huge wound cavities when we cut meat, which make me think they will be enough to either stop the threat under most circumstances or kill them outright. Either one make us the winner so as I pointed out and in agreement with you all, the real work is up to us to become and to stay as proficient as we can possibly be under any and all circumstances.
There is simply no substitute for practice and realism in practice.
Make it tough, make it often and use your imagination. Even when at home we can practice our dry fire and mag changes while watching the news etc.

but again, and I know without doubt the most important things of all are to harden our own perimeters. If we make it look like our home is the most difficult on the street to approach and if we change our routines constantly we make it very difficult for the BGs to get a fix on us or to give them an opportunity to attack us or our loved ones, we will very possibly never be a victim.
I have taught this and practiced it all of my adult life and in classes all over the country and the numbers of my students who have actually been victimized is countable on the fingers of both hands. And not one of them has been severely injured with three fatalities to our good guy count and also with no prosecutions of any of them.
I cannot over emphasize this work and precaution. It will make you as safe as it is possible for any of us to be and if the devil does jump up, I also have faith that you will survive to spend time with your kids and grand kids.

Take care all and good luck.
I sincerely hope some of this will help you to make wise and informed choices.

Kenny
www.caswells.com

 

[WDBradley]

Re: re: Safety Ammo?

Thank you and I appreciate the opportunity to post for those who not only recognize the value but truly appreciate the info even though it comes from a pruny.
I did not test the Fed HSTs at the time, but most of the other popular hollow points including the Hydrashock.
the wound cavity from all were impressive and would not be in my opinion survivable in the major body cavity.
The other thing that I was looking for specifically was the muzzle flash produced from short barrel guns including 2" revolvers and semi autos up to the 5" 1911 handguns.
In every case including the 357 with 158 gr corbon ammo there was not enough muzzle flash from any of the popular self defense ammos to cause problems with follow-up shots.
This is so critical to all of us when you think that we may have to pull the trigger at o dark thirty. We know we must hit our intended target, but it may be imperative to get off additional shots and even if not we must be able to see our threat at all times, including when and if he is down.
I spent a lot of time with these tests and even filmed the flashes from every round and to say the least the powder and ammo manuf have done some incredible R&D to give us the quality and power that we now get from handgun ammo.
I realize as do you all that handgun deaths are still relatively low compared to rifle or shotguns but the newest of the SD handgun ammo will give you the best penetration with huge wound cavities when we cut meat, which make me think they will be enough to either stop the threat under most circumstances or kill them outright. Either one make us the winner so as I pointed out and in agreement with you all, the real work is up to us to become and to stay as proficient as we can possibly be under any and all circumstances.
There is simply no substitute for practice and realism in practice.
Make it tough, make it often and use your imagination. Even when at home we can practice our dry fire and mag changes while watching the news etc.

but again, and I know without doubt the most important things of all are to harden our own perimeters. If we make it look like our home is the most difficult on the street to approach and if we change our routines constantly we make it very difficult for the BGs to get a fix on us or to give them an opportunity to attack us or our loved ones, we will very possibly never be a victim.
I have taught this and practiced it all of my adult life and in classes all over the country and the numbers of my students who have actually been victimized is countable on the fingers of both hands. And not one of them has been severely injured with three fatalities to our good guy count and also with no prosecutions of any of them.
I cannot over emphasize this work and precaution. It will make you as safe as it is possible for any of us to be and if the devil does jump up, I also have faith that you will survive to spend time with your kids and grand kids.

Take care all and good luck.
I sincerely hope some of this will help you to make wise and informed choices.

Kenny
www.caswells.com

Uncle Fudd/Kenny,
It is so good to hear from you. Always solid advice and more information than I can express. There are a lot of new shooters out there considering the world we live and and they will benefit from your input.

I stagger my mags with Hydra-Shok then a FMJ round. I do this as I like the spread of the HP round but might need the penitration of a fmj and if the time comes I won't have time to chose the right round so I stagger the rounds. I do this in all calibers (auto and wheel guns). does it make sense?

 

[UncleFudd]

Thank you WD;
It hs been a long time but I have not been idle.

I just finished some tests with 22 and 380 ammo as you mentioned there are a lot of new shooters out there.
If the business at my range over the past 2 yrs is any indicator, there are a BUNCH of people with their first guns out there so perhaps they will benefit from your input and that of XD and others as well.
You guys have always in my opinion given sage and sound advice and counsel to everyone who comes for help.
Of course we can never know what one does with this advice but nonetheless, what I have seen has been good stuff.
So keep up the good work as places like this with willing helpers is so critical to the safety and well being of so many.

As for the tests I wonder if this is the place as we are or I am now kind of hi jacking this mans thread. I think his question has been answered but others may also have input to the mag safe issue as well.
I will begin another thread as soon as I can as I think the situation with some of the new ammo is fun and it was interesting to me at least and may help some others with their decision making process.
WD I also stagger my loads and always have for much the same reason, but remember to practice with same as it makes a difference in felt recoil as you already know in shooting the two.
But I will talk about this on the new thread also.

Good morning to you all and I sincerely hope you all have a safe and healthy day.

UF

 

[WDBradley]

Uncle,
I read your new post and it is nice to have you back.

To be honest I don't stagger my rounds at the range. I shoot the cheap stuff and finish with a mag of the rounds I carry. It is hits about the same I expect I'm good. It makes it more affordable to get to the range more often.

Again pracitice, practice, practice is the key of doing anything well.