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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys and gals;
I have been an active instructor for a lot of years and most of my time I am either still learning or trying to share some of what I have been privileged to experience with others.

I have attended courses at many of the finest facilities in the nation and some over seas as well. However these facilities are expensive and to some out of the realm of practicality. Especially now with the cost of living day to day they seem even more distant in our priorities. In short, they are too expensive when compared with placing food on our tables or gas in our tanks.

So what do we have as ready alternatives that can bring excellent training to all of us at affordable rates.
In a word, it's reading. And there are some excellent IMHO books by the same people who host the schools I mentioned earlier. Some of these people are still with us and some have left tremendous legacies for us to study to our benefit.

I thought I would start this thread in the sincere hope that something I say might help someone and encourage others to participate by adding to the list with comments and personal encouragement. Pitch in folks, we may all learn.

I saw something similar on another forum and thought it is a great idea whose time is here, brought on by necessity and the cost of living.

I do not have an official list to work from, but I will share a few of the better books which I have read, learned from, andI would highly recommend if asked for help.

My personal list of just a few of my favorites are;

The late Col. Jeff Cooper; one in particular is his book, "To Ride, shoot Straight and to Speak the Truth". And probably the number one book that In my opinion sets the stage for all other books of its' kind, "Principles of Personal Defense"

Dave Grossman, "On Killing" and "On Combat".

If you are new to concealed carry, Chris Bird "The concealed carry manual".

Gabe Suarez Read his "Tactical Series, such as "The Tactical Advantage".

Louie Awerbuck, (I had the privilege of co-instructing a couple of courses with Louie back in 90 at my range in Az and found him to be a rather quiet unassuming fellow who I believe has become one of the great tacticians of our time) He has several
books now and I am sure they are all equally good. But I read his "Tactical Reality" and it is excellent.

Col. Rex Applegate "Kill or Get Killed".

Bruce K Siddle " Sharpening The Wrriors Edge", Written so a layman such as myself can understand why we do or react the way we do in times of extreme stress. Basically a study of the brain, how it functions and how we then react physically.

I have been to his classes and personally believe he is a jerk of the first order but arguably he has done as much or more for teaching self defense and the court systems than anyone else I have either read or attended a class. Maasad Ayoob, "In The Gravest Extreme" and though it is more directed toward LEO it has excellent information for civilians as well, "Stressfire".

Fairbairn and Sykes, " Shooting to Live".

William H Jordan " No Second Place Winners". A must read although it is old it is still excellent materiel for mindset.

Tom givens " Fighting Smarter"

J. Michael Plaxco "Shooting From Within".

Although I have yet to read them I am told that there are several excellent books by John Farnham and one in particular I have heard raves about is Tiger McKee his book "Book of Two Guns" I understand Clint Smith did the forward to this book and that speaks volumes for its' credibility to me.

Also I have attended 5 different pistol and rifle courses at Thunder Ranch and though I have not read his books or seen his tapes or CDs I am told they are top drawer. I will have them done this year.

This is not all but enough and I hope some of you will share your thoughts as well as some of the books you have read that you feel are good for us all to better our understanding of every and any concept of the possible use of force in our daily lives.
Your contribution could be the difference in another person living through a horrendous encounter.

I know I am alive today because of the training, practice and a whole lot of luck during a very bad situation. Others had and have since played a very serious role in my self defense education and I have spent over 30 years since that time attempting to give back to people that come to me for help.

I hope this thread might be another way to offer help and to receive from all of you some more along the way.

UncleFudd
 

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Always looking for more reading material...thanks again, UncleFudd, for sharing your knowledge and experience.

+1 on Principles of Personal Defense. A real eye-opener. I you were raised in a "do not resist" culture (like I was), this book challenges those preconceptions effectively.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you Bunnyman.

I was beginning to think I may have wasted a lot of time and space.

It makes me feel vindicated that at least one person has read the list and agrees with the reading for our knowledge and training.

Just kidding of course but I am sincerely glad that someone has approved.

Interesting that you mention the "compliance" frame of mind. It is of course the way our law enforcement community would have us conduct ourselves. They will or at least they always have told us, "do not resist".
In addition it is important for every one of us who would consider defending ourselves and our loved ones to know the position of our specific county attorneys or attorney general of the state where we reside. It may be your top law official has taken the position of "prosecuting" anyone who uses a firearm even in self defense. Many of them do which in essence say they will make you prove you were justified in using the firearm.

Which is all the more reason for everyone contemplating the use of deadly force to have your "defense" attorney already lined up and to have their emergency number on you at all times. Notice I said DEFENSE attorney. No other type of lawyer will help you at the time you have used deadly force to defend yourself and if you wait until it happens to begin looking for one, you are already in the soup with no paddle.

In my classes, every one of them as well as my other instructors at my range, when we finish the course, we hand out a list of names with addresses and ph. numbers of the most successful DEFENSE attorneys in Az. I update this list at least every three months and I contact every single law firm and attorney on the list every time I update the list. This way I know every one of the attorneys have at least an initial contact and therefor know when one of our students call the reason they are being sought. The attorneys have all been very open and encouraging about this approach and agree it could be critical for everyone under the circumstances. We encourage everyone to call the attorneys until you find one you like and then once you have met with them be sure to tell them why and what you are doing and get their numbers.

I do not want my students or the people I am responsible for through training at my facility to ever have to wonder who will be there when they need them so desperately. And yes as a result I have been asked to give testimony either at deposition or at trial to help my students as have some of my instructors.

Anyway, just one more thing from me to all of yu to be preparing yourselves and becoming even more knowledgeable concealed carry practitioners.

Hope it helps and at least gives you more information to think about. And its free.

UF
 

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+1 on the Whole posting UncleFudd,

There is a Lot of information there to have, if one just takes the time and sits down to read all of this.

I wish I had a Fraction of the Knowledge that you have. You are like a walking Library Sir.

I Look forward to all of your postings. There is something for everyone in each and every post you have.

Again, Thank you UncleFudd for helping all of us to better our lives in one way or another.

As Always, Stay Safe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you XD for the kind words.

I am retired now and speak only at seminars and special courses at the request of my instructors. But I have been blessed to have attended courses taught by some of the greatest instructors of the 20th century. Yes the last century or more than 1/2 of it anyway.
I was also privileged to have co-taught with some of these people men as well as women.
So if I ever knew or more importantly if I actually remember anything at all it is due to their ability to articulate the things that were important to me at the time.

I truly enjoy being able to pass on some of this information and when necessary, to be challenged or corrected by the extremely bright and experienced in their own right people here on the forum. My hope is that none of it becomes boring or out of touch. If so, please someone, anyone say the word aand I will quietly go back to lurking and learning. Remembering of course what my grandpa said many years ago, " hush up son, you can't learn when your talking".

But I appreciate the fact that you have gotten something out of my comments. It makes my day, every day.

UncleFudd
 

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I didn't reply because I thought it was a pretty thorough listing and one I could not add to. I've read most of the books listed and they all have a lot of information for one to think about. I've read an excerpt from McKee's book and it was a good read.
I have to disagree with you a bit on Ayoob, I found him to be either a very decent fellow or one that your description is inadequate but nothing in between. I guess it depends on the day and maybe if he had a bran muffin or a blueberry one that morning. When I was working at a different department, a copy of "In the Gravest Extreme" was required reading for anyone applying for a carry permit and much of the written test was based on it. Since then, many other books have become available to lay people but Ayoob's book is still very applicable regarding mental processes.
Maybe the most important information given in any of these posts and the books listed is the concept of determining an attorney to represent you BEFORE a problem occurs. Like you, I have been involved in a non-duty use of firearm and even though the facts were pretty clear cut, I still had to put out several thousand dollars for an attorney to monitor the investigation and head off any problems that might occur. Later, I had to shell out another few thousand when a complication of that incident raised its head. The money spent earlier greatly reduced the amount I needed to spend the second time around. I was lucky in that I had a good friend who was also a knowledgeable criminal attorney that was readily available. He is no longer in the business and the new one took some research to decide on. Having their card is nice but a face to face meeting early on is a good idea and wise use of money I believe. Around here, a good defense attorney retainer is around $50,000 with costs upwards of $150,000 expected if it goes to trial though that does not guarantee an acquittal. With costs like that, it is wise to find an attorney that knows what they are doing.
 

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I have a copy of Fairbairn and Sykes, Shooting to Live which I found free (legally) in PDF format online. The link is in my next post further down the discussion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hey fuelburns;
If you find the reference for the book, please let us know. Many of the books that I referenced are are no longer in print and I am not sure which or how one would go about getting copies to read un less they are available in libraries.

Uglydog;

I believe I was dead wrong to have entered personal feelings in my effort to provide meaningful information. It had no place in my reference and I realize it now upon reading your reply.
I had a specific purpose, topic with important sidebar to share in order to interest the people here who are serious about training and learning all that we can about self defense. How I feel or interact with any one or all of the authors is without base, reason or fact and had no place in the meat of my material.

Therefore, my sincere apology to all who may have read this or will in the future. I sincerely hope it has not distracted from the importance of the information overall.

As far as his contributions to teaching the intricacies of self defense, he is well above average and for his information concerning jurisprudence, he is unequaled IMHO. I believe he has been a tremendous help to civilian and LEO both.

I could not agree more having to do with finding an attorney before you need one. That is the reason we provide the list and encourage our students to call and to go and meet one or more of these people. Usually, there is no expense for an initial meeting. Also I think it is imperative to point out that people do not have to "retain" one of these people and there is no expense unless you have to call him to defend you. It is the idea that you have the ability to call at any time and to know you will have the help you will so desperately need by the right type and experienced attorney.

You mentioned the price of bonding out and the current price for retaining an attorney for homicide is $100K and remember you bond is 10% and it is non refundable. So the one thing I failed to mention is knowing a very good bankruptcy attorney as well. No one said defending yourself is going to be cheap. But the important thing is you hope to remain alive as well as to have all of your loved ones the same.

UF
 

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UF,
I don't think it is always a wrong idea to put in one's personal opinions on a person, that one can give a good recommendation of a work in spite of what one thinks of the author can be very telling. Same as if one thinks the sun rises and sets on that person, it gives one insight as to the veracity of the reviewer. I've met Mas a handful of times, a couple have been very friendly and a couple could have gone much better. His knowledge is unquestionable but his personality is a guessing game.

As you mention, a retainer is not needed until you have need of your attorney's services but one must also realize that the price is pretty high. Most people's exposure to an attorney occurs in the making of wills or divorce; that is expensive enough but nothing compared to that of criminal defense. It cost me $250 for an audience with the top guy rather than an underling but I wanted to talk to him in particular as he was the most experienced and would be providing guidance to the associate that got my case. I had a list of questions to ask prepared ahead of time and when I was done I asked him what I was missing and should know. I left him with a check to be cashed if I should ever need his services. This way someone will show up immediately and not the next morning.
I never really thought of needing a bankruptcy lawyer as I have kind of planned on how I would finance my defense and what assets I would liquidate first. Its something I will have to look at closer. Also, providing a bond is a cost in addition to the attorney's retainer and the cost of defense.
As I alluded to earlier, it cost me several thousand dollars on two occasions for something I was never charged. I can only imagine what it would have cost if I would have been brought to trial.
It is important to first physically survive an attack but to financially survive the aftermath is also important, particularly so if you have others depending on you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
UD;
On Maas we apparently have had much the same reactions when in his presence. Humble he is not, then again I have not seen many worth while instructors who are.

Good stuff you posted and agreed on establishing an account that can be drawn from if needed. As you said, that has a tendency to get someone with you right away.

I mentioned the BR situation because I want the people who are serious about defending themselves to understand as many of the ramifications and problems doing so will constitute. Bottom line it ain't over when its over.

One other thing that everyone should be aware of is your mental condition once you realize you have survived. Remember that you have had to use deadly force meaning you may or may not have survived and others in your family may have perished as a result of the threat. We are assuming here that you survived but in the process had to take the life of another human being. If God forbid this happens, you will need the help of your entire support group, family, church, doctors, psychologists etc. You will need all of them and still may or will have serious problems as a result.
I have been accused of being a wimp about this, but I have personal experience with this as well as personally knowing others who have and who have been drastically changed by the results.
One of the reasons for my posting these recommended books was a result of that name calling. You will find that some of the books I posted deal with the aftermath and some very brave men and women who turned to booze, drugs fast women etc trying to deal with what they were forced to do.

Thanks UD this kind of dialog gets excellent info to a lot of people.

UF
 

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Re: re: Suggested Reading for Self Defense

UncleFudd said:
turned to booze, drugs fast women etc
Pretty much what gets many into problems to begin with, one must remember that and find different courses that are more likely to achieve better results.
Getting good psychiatric help is extremely important as PTSD comes in many forms and the most damaging (in my mind) occurs to those with the best support system. The stereotypical sweats, nightmares, and paranoia have been demonized in TV and movies but the type that manifests itself as a physical rather than mental "need" is the most frightening to me. It comes from the hormonal dump into the body when under great and sudden stress. One often describes this as "never feeling more alive" and the body later craves to experience this feeling more often. The typical person afflicted with this has a hard time reconciling the physical "rush" with the moral belief it is wrong to take a life. This dilema is exacerbated when they return to a "normal" life as the moral beliefs are reinforced while the physical remembrance of the feelings are yearned for by the body. That the afflicted has all the needed tools for recovery according to the classic train of thought causes many to not look close enough to see or realize the war raging inside. This can lead to self destructive behavior in the individual that catches everyone off guard.
Unfortunately, this also costs a lot of money and one is caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes time to choose between protecting you freedom or your sanity.
 

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A couple of observations. Nothing wrong with stating your opinion about a particular author/instructor. That's what chat boards are comprised of....people's opinions. For me, Ayoob has long come across as someone who has a pretty high opinion of himself and is not afraid to share it. Some feel the same way about Cooper, but I've always been able to tolerate his smugness a little better, God rest his soul. Maybe that trait is in the DNA of self-defense "experts".

BTW, in my part of the country, the bondsman's fee to sign a surety bond is 15%, rather than 10. Most people on this forum probably have enough friends or relatives who are property owners that they can avoid dealing with bondsmen if the SHTF. Around here, the only folks who use bondsmen are lay abouts, petty criminals and flight risks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
docmccoy;
Excellent points all IMHO. I guess I knew the bond was as you said, 15% I don't know what I was thinking but the point is that everyone should be aware of the horrible expenses, )fiancially) as a result of using deadly force to defend ourselves. Of course we are going to do whatever it takes to survive and then deal with all the rest, but it certainly does not hurt to be aware of these things before hand. I train with my choice of firearm and I spend a lot of time and money to harden my own perimeters making it seem it more likely to be unsuccessful to attack me or my home than the neighbors. I believe if I look aware and prepared and my home looks like it will be very difficult to breach I will never again have to use force to stop an attack. The bad guys will pick on someone else if I am successful.

The same applies with the psychological ramifications of having to possibly kill another person. I am not a physician and have no knowledge of why it happens, but because I know that it does, I try to share to the extent I think is necessary so that others may be better prepared than I and perhaps have better knowledge of what to expect and therefore what to have in place to help them through any rough spots.
It changes you forever and some are able to handle it better than others but all will have to deal with the aftereffects at some time. Of this I am absolutely certain. It is part and parcel the reason why nearly every progressive thinking police department has a "peer group" within the department. These people show up immediately to be with the officer AND HIS FAMILY when they are involved in a shooting. We as civilians have to have our own peer group so to speak and we should not ignore it. But we must be aware that the possibility for something like this exists or we will never know to expect it and what to do to deal with it, properly.

In the end it is still the individual that has to deal with the demons within, but to a point there is help. just be aware of that and of what to look for in your helpers.
I am always reminded of how important our church or religion can be in these situations and I remind all of my students to check now, before anything happens to see what your religion will do to support you if you have to terminate someone. I found out the hard way that there are a couple of the most popular Christian religions who do not believe you have the right to take a life, no matter the reason. Check it out folks and don't be taken by surprise when you will so desperately need their help.


I hope all of this is more training and preparedness for us all and as so at least a motivator to seek more information.
I know it has become very expensive to travel and to pay for some of the schools out there so we look for alternatives to keep our training and knowledge ongoing. These books and good topics on these forums are another excellent place and way to keep it up inexpensively.

Good luck, stay safe, always.

UF
 

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Re: re: Suggested Reading for Self Defense

UncleFudd said:
I am not sure which or how one would go about getting copies to read un less they are available in libraries.
Checked the on-line catelog of the local libraries ..... Wouldn't it figure .... not a one :evil:
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Captn66;

Are you looking for a particular book?
If so, let me know and I will see if I can help.

It does not surprise me that these are not contained in our libraries, remember "free speech" only works one way and the libs will be durn sure you will not have any positive gun references in shools or libraries if they can help it.

UF
 

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Re: re: Suggested Reading for Self Defense

Captn66 said:
UncleFudd said:
I am not sure which or how one would go about getting copies to read un less they are available in libraries.
Checked the on-line catelog of the local libraries ..... Wouldn't it figure .... not a one :evil:
Go to the local branch and fill out a request card. It is quite possible the library does not have a particular book in its inventory but most public libraries have an exchange or borrowing pact with others where just about anything can be obtained. My local county library has a rather limited budget and inventory but I have requested and received some rather arcane and even rare books from them. It may take some time to get the book in (four weeks is the longest I've waited for a non-rare book and that one came from two states away) but it should eventually come in. Libraries on the whole are actually pretty strong on the right to information though individual beliefs may have some impact on the speed of processing requests.
 

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I wasn't really looking for anything in particular. I was just going to see what they had off of UF's original list and start going through them as time permitted.

The catelog I was searching is actually a compilation of all the Libraries in the county (approx 45 different libraries). Find what you want and they send it to the local one you pick.

The local sportsman's warehouse I know has "The Gravest Extreme" so I'll probably start with that one.
 

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I think "In the Gravest Extreme" is a good one to own even though it is fairly dated.
I should have been more clear, I use the word "library" as referring to the entity that owns or controls all the buildings and materials in a particular system. Making a request for a particular title at the main desk of any branch is pretty simple and if the title cannot be found within the local system, a search throughout any and all other entities affiliated with yours should produce the desired results. Most libraries have a resource sharing pact with each other and there are few materials that can't be dredged up from somewhere. As I mentioned, I had a near month long wait for some materials but then that was in the days before Al Gore developed the Internet. The longest I've had to wait has been two weeks and that was for a book that was in the next county as I waited for the Bookmobile to bring it around rather than pay for mailing it. For books brought in from outside the area serviced by the Bookmobile I have not been charged for shipping except in the case of rare books which required special treatment. Even then, the cost has been quite reasonable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
UD
This is some very good info ie the libraries. I am visiting our summer home for the next few months in Wa state in a little tiny town on the peninsula at the extreme southwest corner of the state.
I am however, located literally across the street from our city library. I have some new authors that I want to pursue and I am going over there tomorrow to see what if any of my needs they may have. Your sharing information may very well make a difference to me in whether I am able to get my hands on some of these works.

Captn, I have the Gravest Extreme at home in Phoenix and would be happy to lend it to you if you still want it, as I will be there on the 15th of July for a Dr appt.

Let me know and if you want to wait, it may save you a couple of dollars. Then again, this is a book as with many of them, you may want to buy it and keep it for reference. But as Uglydog said, it is dated but very good basic information. I still use it as reference material for my students information on occasion.

I will also look to see what others I may be able to lend.

UncleFudd
 
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