[BigDog]

I do a lot of reloading - and I understand your logic - but what I don't understand is why you want to do it. I understand being curious - and while the pressures your're getting are probably ok, at least based on the velocities you're able to measure, you're really guessing at the pressures since it would be very expenisve to have the equipment ot measure it - and I get back to the same thing, what is the point of doing it ?

I also understand you aren't suggesting others do it / just testing it and seeing if others have tried it - and discussing whether it can be done or not.

But I think what some responders are saying - that haven't agreed with you - is why not just load .38 spl cases to normal pressures and velocities ( I load mine to about 750 fps with a 158 gr bullet ) - and load .357 mag to their normal pressures and velocities ( I load mine at about 1200 fps with the same 158 gr bullet ). Brass is relatively cheap for the .357 mag if you have to buy it - and there is a lot of it laying around at my local range or at least enough that I seem to pick up about 200 rounds a month of brass off of the floors. I will admit there is a lot more .38 spl laying around the range - so I probably pick up close to 500 rounds of that a month .... to the point where I've long since quit saving and cleaning it. But since there is no shortage of brass - why not just load a .38 spl round and a .357 mag round and be done with it ?

Last nite I went to my local range and shot 3 boxes of .357 mag for some practice and had a great time. But if one of the grandkids was with me - and wanted to shoot one of my .357 mag revolvers and shoot the softer .38 spl loads in that gun - that would be fine too. I usually keep 20 - 40 boxes of .38 spl and .357 mag reloads in inventory most of the time - so I can grab a box of each or whatever I want to shoot that evening. It makes more sense to me to have both loads there vs trying to make a load in a .38 spl case perform like a .357 mag ( not that you can't do it obviously ) -but frankly, why bother when you can have both and shoot whatever you want ?

My .357 mag revolvers are all S&W - primarily N frame - a few L frame and while I know they can take the loads you suggest I wouldn't do it. But I will say I'm happy that you keep those hotter .38 spl loads locked up and properly labeled.

But a lesson I learned a few years ago - occasionally, I've had some softer and some hotter loads - in one caliber - separately boxed in my range bag. Yet somehow, when I got home 1 or more of those boxes were only partially full and there were 10 or 12 loose rounds in the bag ( kids make mistakes ) and I couldn't tell what was what. My only solution was to pull the bullets on the loose rounds - and recycle them. I've had the same problem on shotgun loads ( 12ga 7/8 oz 1150 fps and some at 1225 fps / some 12ga 1 oz at 1150 fps, some at 1200 and some at 1225 fps - and to make it even worse some were loaded with 9's, some 8 1/2's and some 8's. I had everything all boxed up and labeled - but they were all Remington STS 12ga green hulls - and they all looked the same. And after a hot day at the club - and 2 wives, 2 kids and 4 grandkids shooting all day - I ended up with about 100 loose shells - everyones vest had a few extras just in case of a broken target - and I ended up with a two 1 gallon bags of reloads marked "misc". I didn't waste them - I just shot them up in skeet practice - so not a safety thing but what I did learn was - if I'm going to load stuff like that for my wife or the grandkids to shoot something softer - is to take a magic marker and mark the bottom of each shell ( red for 1225 fps / orange for 1200 fps / yellow for 1150 fps ) and if 90% of my stuff is 8's - then mark the one's with 8 1/2's with a slash / and the 9's with 2 slashes so I can separate them later. I'd recommend you consider marking the bottom of those hotter .38spl loads in some way as well - just in case.

 

[JoePistol]

The reason I like to load these hotter loads in 38
cases.

(1) I have the cases.
(2) I shoot mostly the hotter loads, but like to shoot
some mild ones once in a while. By sticking with
the 38 case I don't have to reset my dies.
(3) By shooting the 38 case, I just shoot them a
few times and throw away. I don't worry about
case length and trimming since there is no way
a 38 case is going to outgrow a 357 chamber.
(4) I don't really want to go up to really full power
357, and I'm pretty sure my pressures in these
mid range 357 loads is quite safe in a 357 gun.
(5) I don't have any 38 spec guns, into which I
could accidently load one of these loads.
(6) When I deplete these cases, I will probably
switch to 357 cases, reset my dies and not
load any 38 cases even if I load light loads.
Then, of course case length is going to
become a factor. and will have to be checked.

I used to have a 7X57 that was meant
for lower power loads, a mauser model 95.
I also had one that could take full 50,000
psi loads. I got rid of the M95 so that I would
never get a hot load in it. There are many ways
to get into trouble loading, but I am pretty
comfortable with what I am doing. I never
shoot anyone elses handloads, for example.

When I started loading about 50 years ago, the
books in those days gave a lot more emphasis
on how to work up loads, read primers etc.
Books today are a little more politically correct,
and don't talk about this as much. Also I read
cover to cover many howto manuals over the
years from various companies like, Lyman, Pacific,
Hornady, Sierra, Herters, Hogdon, and others.
With the advent of chronographs, a person has one
more good tool for gauging pressure. I am
hesitant to give some details, since someone
is going to take offense at this and get scared
out his pants, so I won't. But those of you who
are familiar with working up their own loads
probably know what I am talking about.

If we did nothing but load things right out of the
manual, this reloading forum might not have much
point.

That being said, there are a many things that can
go wrong, and somehow someone will find a way
to do many of them. Pointing out these dangers,
as has been done here is a good thing. By all
means, everyone should only do things he understands
and is comfortable with. Marking the bottom of the
cases as you mentioned is also a good idea.

 

[JoePistol]

While we are talking of the safety of using the
wrong ammuntion in a gun it might be well to
comment on the fact that there are many factory
load combinations that can blow guns up and injure
people.

Take for example the fact that many cartridges
are built on similar but not identical cases.

For example, the 30-06, 270, 25-06, 280 Rem,
and many wildcats use the basic 2 1/2 inch
case of the 30-06.

It is hard to interchange any of the above
ammuntion into the wrong gun and get a
dangerous situation but consider the fact
that another group of cartridges use an
almost similiar case to the above 2 1/2
inch case, but it is 1/4 inch shorter. In
this group of 2 1/4 inch cases with a similar
body diameter to the 30-06 case above, you
have 8X57, 7X57, 244 Rem, 257 Roberts, etc.
Since these are 1/4 shorter than the 06
family, you can get some of these to chamber
in guns chambered to the longer 06 cartridges.
For example, you can get some 8X57 to chamber
in 30-06 guns. This is because the larger
8mm bullet rests in the neck area of the
longer 30-06 chamber. If this cartridge is fired
in an 06 gun, it will give an over pressure
and could destroy the gun, hurt the shooter
etc. You might also be able to get a 7X57
into a 270 gun.

Add to this the fact that people often use
one case like a 30-06 and trim it to a shorter
length, then resize, like making 8mm cases
out of 30-06 cases. Then you have a case
marked 30-06 on the base, that is actually
an 8X57. It is easy to see how this might
eventually get into a 30-06 gun and blow it
up.

Next you have the 2 inch cases that the 308
family is made on. These are 308, 358, 243,
260 Rem, 7mm-08. Some of the 2 1/4 cartridges
can be fit into some of these 2 inch chambers
like maybe putting a 308 into a 7X57 improved,
which will give a quite over pressure and
dangerous load.

In the magnum group, they all head space on
the belt. This makes it possible to chamber
many shorter magnums into guns chambered for
the longer magnums. An example would be
chambering a 350 Rem into something chambered
for a long 30 caliber like 300 Weatherby, or
300 Winchester. Of course shooting that 35
caliber in a 30 caliber gun will not give
you the result you are looking for. There
are many other combinations you can get
into similar trouble with.

Then there is the well known problem of putting
a 20 ga shell in a 12 ga gun. This same thing
can happen by putting a 28 ga shell into either
a 20 ga or 16 ga, I forget which.

There are probably many short straight cased
large caliber cartridges that will fit into
some smaller caliber bottle necked case, like
maybe puting a 44 mag into something like a
303 British or 30-40 Krag. You can probably
put a 45 ACP into many chambers like 308
Winchester etc. It would not be smart to do
that though.

By the way, I have seen 38 spec guns that
would chamber 357 cases. Apparently the
maker made the chamber a little longer
than needed.

All in all there are many ways you can get
into trouble loading improper ammunition into
guns. Add to that the possibility of
overcharging with powder, the dangers of
lead poisoning, it makes you wonder why
people load or shoot at all.

 

[Rev.]

JoePistol...

I haven’t commented up to now but I would like to give my opinion.
I have no doubt that you could slowly work up a 38 +P+++++++ load that would function fine in a 357 mag revolver. But there is always a chance that by accident some of your experiment could find itself in a S&W mod 36. The results could easily be catastrophic. Causing serious injury.
Just think before you do this.

 

[JoePistol]

Well I guess you guys were right that said "don't
load these dangerous loads, someone will get hurt". A
few days ago someone broke into my house, drilled
my safe open and robbed my hot 38 special loads.
It seems that he was actually a convicted
thief on probation doing community service
for 2 years. He was assigned to help boy
scout troop 14 who were doing some weapons
training and target practice. The thief was
in charge of buying ammunition for the boys
and decided to keep the money and steal mine
instead. The day they took the boys out,
they also borrowed some surplus 38 spec
revolvers from the local PD. Arriving at
the range, everything went okay for several
rounds and then guns started exploding and
mutilating the poor boy scouts. After about
5 gun explosions they called the police who
started an official investigation. Soon
they had the problem all worked out and
had a confession from the thief. Here is the
funny part. The police thought the thief
loaded the bullets because he even confessed
to loading them, didn't want to be implicated
in a robbery, I guess while on probation from
another robbery. This robber wanted to show
how bad he was apparently because when
asked why he wanted to blow up the unsuspecting
boy scouts, he just said, "I couldn't find
an orphanage to destroy, or a convent of nuns
to molest so I settled for the blowing up the
boy scouts."

 

[Fuelburns2]

I see you have a British sense of humor. :wink:

 

[BigDog]

It sounds to me that it just comes down to doing something on the "cheap". Instead of considering this option, I'd recommend buying 2 sets of dies - and an extra toolhead - and set one up for .38 spl and one for .357 mag and quit fooling with it. Then load both types of brass to levels that make more sense.

All the tongue and cheek stuff aside - which is maybe why you're doing this anyway - but I still don't get why you are bothering to do this, if you really are doing it - and I just can't endorse it as a good idea - especially for shooters that have limited experience in reloading. I understand all the concepts about running up loads - I have a buddy that used to take his loader, set it up on the back of his vehicle - and tweak his loads all day long at the range. Up a little, down a little - change powder, change brand of primers etc. until he got a load that performed and felt exactly the way he wanted it. But outside the tested pressure / velocity limits - again makes no sense to me - and neither one of us would do it. But it's a free country - stay safe.

 

[JoePistol]

You convinced me. I have been trying to get by on the
cheap. I decided, what the heck, why be a cheap
skate. I sold my loader and from now on I'm only going
to buy factory 357, 38 spec, or 38 spec +p. Why be
cheap, when we can spend money, and avoid all that
handle pulling, and powder measuring. Thanks for
straightening me out.

 

[BigDog]

Big-Dogs have feelings too you know, we may not look look sensitive, but we could be.....

There will be little puddles of tears on my pillow tonite ..... ( I may have to console myself by loading some .357 mag ... just to calm down....).

 

[JoePistol]

Bigdog,

I suspect that you are an undercover pyschologist that
is working with a group of reloaders who actually want
to buy factory ammuntion. All this touchy feely stuff
about having feelings tipped me off.

 

[BigDog]

That's me ...... Dr Phil with hair ..... If I keep laughing like this, I'm going to wet myself ....... ( I'm really a closet rep for Hodgdon, Dillon, Montana Gold, and CCI ....... and MEC, Browning, Krieghoff and Kimber, Wilson, Sig and Smith & Wesson ).

 

[RMc]

Gentlemen:

When the nay sayers finally quiet down we can continue. Thank you - that's much better.

Each individual is responsible for the the reliability and safety of his or her own handloads. There is a long history of loading older rounds to higher pressures for modern guns. Yes, the reloader is responsible for keeping those higher pressure loads out of guns unable to handle them. The same is true of factory ammunition and we can all cite pertinent examples.

Back to the "case" at hand. Were I to load the .38Spl to near .357 Magnum pressures, I would want to find a way to use published starting load data for the .357 without having to worry about reduced powder capacity causing unexpected pressures. At the same time, I would want to be able to visually identify any of my loads as higher pressure rounds. Notice the "I" in that last statement. That is, if somehow all of my ammo was dumped on the floor I could readily sort them out.

The easy solution for low end .357 loads in .38Spl cases is to follow Skeeter's solution using the Thompson bullet with two crimping grooves as cited in an earlier post. The second or lower crimping groove is designed to seat the bullet out to the same length the cartridge would have if seated normally in the .357 case. Simple.

Wait a minute you say - I want to load jacketed bullets. Again a simple solution presents itself. The Lee Factory Crimp collet die will allow you to seat jacketed bullets out to .357 length in .38 cases and the exposed factory crimp groove on the bullet will immediately identify the round as different from regular .38 Special rounds. The added advantage is not having to guess at reducing the powder charge to offset the reduced powder capacity of the Specials case.

Now if I just had a 55 gallon drum full of once fired .38Spl. brass...!

RMc

 

[JoePistol]

Yes, it is getting harder to scrounge the 38 spec brass.
There was a time that it was in pretty large supply,
with police and USAF using it as the standard handgun
cartridge, but those days are behind us. It has
become a 9mm world for guys who want to scrounge
cheap brass. I don't even have a 9mm gun. Too bad,
because I have about 900 9mm fmj bullets, that I
could load. The 9mm don't work too well in 38 spec
cases. The 9mm diameter is slightly smaller and they
don't want to seat well of give good accuracy in the
38.

 

[uglydog]

I will reiterate my main concern with this procedure; many .38 Special cases are much too weak to contain .357 magnum pressures. The alloy used and annealing processes are different as the .38 Spl generally tops out around 20,000 PSI while .357 mag pressures are often double that. It is not often possible to differentiate the strong from the weak by looking at them; only by shooting them can one tell. Case failures are not pretty sights in rifles which are often designed for such occurances, I would hate to personally see this happen in a handgun.
Best of luck and may ill fortune not visit you in this endeavour.

 

[BigDog]

Well said again UglyDog .....

All the tongue and cheek BS aside .... I agree, it's just not a great idea.

 

[JoePistol]

Uglydog,

Your concerns sound worth listening to, but I wonder
if you could expand a little bit on the idea of strong
brass versus weak brass. I don't quite have the
expertise to see where you are headed here. The
first problem I encounter is your argument that the
annealing processes are different. This has my
interest up quite a bit. It is my understanding
that the annealing should be quite similar between
38 spec and 357 magnum. When brass is first processed
it is very malleable. That is, it is very easily
changed in shape. In this soft configuration it lacks
strength and can be easily transformed in shape.
To overcome this weakness the brass is processed by
"working it". That is it is ran through rollers until
this softness is overcame and then the brass is pretty
hard and holds its shape much better. This rolling or
bending or changing the shape of brass gives it its
strength to overcome the original annealing. The original
annealing consists of just heating it up, which lets
all the molecules find their natural position. In its
harder condition after working or rolling
it is made into cartridges and it holds its shape very
well. The problem is that if it is "worked" much more,
that is, it is changed shape more then it becomes
progressively harder, and then it becomes brittle and
cracks. This is seen in reloading when after a case
is loaded about 10 times the case splits or cracks.
This happens to both 38 spec and 357 cases and it
also happens with 30-06 cases which are fired at
even higher pressures yet. Old loaders may have gotten
50 loads out of a 30-06 case if they annealed them about
every 5 reloadings. Since most brass cartridges
are rolled or worked until the soft annealing process
gives a harder more firm brass, then it is hard for me
to see how annealing differs that much between 38 and
357. Annealing is nothing more than heating the metal.
Many of us old time loaders who learned to load before
Reloading 101 was offered in college, also did our own
annealing. It is a fact that the brass will crack
and split after several loadings, because the brass is
"worked" each time it expands and subsequently sized
in the loading process. Annealing is not rocket science.
You heat the brass, and it is soft without any internal
stress. You bend it awhile and it is harder. You bend
it some more and it cracks. One thing we learned in the
old days was that if we annealed the case without keeping
the base of it cool then the base also lost its strength.
The proper way to anneal the cases were to heat them
with the bases submerged in water. That kept the bases
from being annealed. If the bases were not kept cool
during heating of the case mouths then the bases also
got annealed and they were therefore too soft. That is
the bases were not very strong. When these cases
were fired the softer brass would expand more and the
primer pocket became enlarged. It was so much bigger
that it could no longer have the friction required
to hold a primer in place. If you loaded it again,
the primer would fall out. This is why brass has to
be worked a bit after annealing. It has to be made
a little harder and stronger. However if you keep
on working it, then shortly it will crack or split.
It seems to me the main difference in strength has
to be considered is that of cartridge thickness.
I have seen some pretty low pressure rounds with
some pretty thin cases. At the same time, it is noted
that most higher pressure cases have some "meat" in
them. I would have to say that most brass undergoes
the same annealing and subsequent working in order
to remove the softness. I suspect that the difference
in brass strength is just about all contributed by
thickness.

By the way, the SR71 was annealed everytime it flew,
from the hot temperature that it obtained at mach
3 each flight. This kept its metal like virgin
new metal and never had a problem with cracked
sheet metal as a result.

In many hand gun cartridges, you can see that low
pressure rounds have thinner brass in the head of
the case. This has been seen in 38 and 357 cases
also. The cases I presently have show just as
much brass in the base with 38 spec as others
with 357. I suspect though that there are 38
spec cases made much thinner, and therefore
weaker. This is something that the reloader should
notice.

If you can really show a difference in the metals
of 38 spec and 357 I would be interested. I suspect
though that the main difference is probaly case
thickness. Whenever I can see a suspect 38 spec
case has a base thinner than a 357 then I would
not try to push that one up in power. Even the
ones I have pushed up I have not pushed up to full
357 pressures. Also all the ones I have done have
kept the case well in tact. None of them have been
weak enough to fail, of course and even beyond that
none of them even have had trouble holding a primer
when reloaded. If they were being over stressed
then they could well have trouble holding a primer
after being overpressured.

 

[uglydog]

JoePistol,
You are asking the wrong person to explain the annealing process but my source hasn't returned my email yet. With an imperfect (at best) understanding of the process it is hard to make sense of what has been told me. Your latest post helped clear up a number of questions but added others. I've done annealing in the making of several cartridges so knew the "how" but never had any of the "why" really explained (other than "If you don't then the case will crack, dummy").
As I understand it the difference in the annealing of the two cartridges isn't in the way its done but in the tolerances allowed for the finished product. As you mentioned, too much working and the brass becomes brittle and too little and it remains too soft. The .357 has a smaller window for elasticity than a .38 Special, what works for the .38 may be outside of the .357's tolerances and various problems may occur. Now my knowledge of annealing, old and new, is about exhausted.
As for the strength of the brass used in cartridges, it is partly true that thickness is a factor in strength but only if the same alloy is used. I've been told that different alloys are used for the various cartridges since there is a tremendous variation in pressures. What alloy is used is determined in part by the needed case capacity, pressure limits of the cartridge, and what the commoditiy price is at the time.
In the past it was much more common to use fewer alloys than at the present; fewer rounds were being made, competition and prices for a product was less, and the "bean counters" weren't as diligent trying to squeeze out every last cent of profit. That is also one reason some of the loads of old are no longer recommended for today; with better and more accurate pressure measuring devices (actually, available pressure testing) some loads have been found to be a bit on the "hot" side of safety. Add in the possibility of weaker cases, a huge increase in reloading activity and the varying skill and knowledge levels of the participants, and an aversion to lawsuits, it is not surprising many old loadings now are no longer recommended. I had a discussion about much of this topic a few month prior to the original post when my buddy mentioned above bought a S&W Outdoorsman in 38/44. He is a ballistician for Federal Cartridge that I occasionally compete against. He was griping about having to cut down .357 cases in order to make true 38/44 loading. It was interesting talk over a roast beef sandwich but not something I really thought I would ever need. If I would have known then I would have recorded the conversation.

 

[JoePistol]

Uglydog,

As usual your explanation is honest, smart and above board
in all ways. I really enjoy your expertise, and I appreciate
the fact that you don't post stuff without good logical
back up material. When and if you get some more guidance
on this, I look forward to reading, in the mean time thanks
for the effort you put in on these forums. Its nice to have
someone knowledgeable that gives real reasons instead of
just saying things like "its obvious you never had reloading
101". Responses like that are a poor substitute for real
information such as you give.

 

[JoePistol]

Warning, people that scare easily should not
read beyond this point. This post contains
thoughts that are not found in loading tables
and could give heart attacks to some individuals.

As long as we are talking of non standard loads
I have been wondering about another one. This
one concerns sabots. I notice you can get 45
cal sabots that hold a smaller bullet like 35
caliber. These are available for muzzle loaders.

I wonder if anyone has tried these in handguns.
Just thinking about them it appears that they
could have some good use, but I suspect that
many factors may contribute to them not being
useable in a handgun. Among the potential
problems I can speculate that there could be
trouble loading these for revolvers concerning
the following areas.
(1) May have seating and crimping problems
holding the sabot in place.
(2) May have some sort of forcing cone problem
as the sabot leaves cylinder and goes into
the forcing cone of the barrel.
(3) May have some problem with bullets coming
unseated during recoil.

In any event I suspect that someone has tried it
and might be able to report on how it went.

I remember sabots were available for awhile
that allowed a 30 cal, like 30-06 or 308 to
load a 22 cal bullet into a 30 caliber sabot.
The result was a bullet fired in the 220 swift
velocity range from your 30 caliber. I haven't
seen those in a long time. It does show the
possibility of getting very high velocity out
of a larger bore gun though using a smaller
bore bullet.

In the case of a 45 caliber sabot holding a
35 caliber bullet, you could get some startling
performance out of something like a 45 long colt
firing a smaller 35 cal bullet like a 158 grain.
You could probably easily get 357 performance
but at low pressures. Of course you might have
the problems I cited before also.

Does anyone know anyone who has tried it? I am
just curious. Actually I have 3 357 revolvers
and would use them for 357 loads, but I do have
a 45 Ruger with 2 interchangeable cylinders,
45 ACP and 45 Long Colt. Just owning that one
makes me wonder about how the 45 might be made
a little more diverse.

 

[uglydog]

Guess taking a WAG, I'd guess that there may be some problems with crimping as the typical .45 BP rifle is supposedly .450" in diameter while the typical .45 Colt is around .451"-.452". Considering how slick these sabots are, I would expect set back upon firing. I wouldn't expect dangerous problems at the forcing cone as I think the plastic would shear of with no problem but I can see some accuracy problems as the bullets may not enter evenly every time. I also would be concerned about plastic build up in the cylinder gap causing functioning problems.
Another possible problem might be overall length or decreased internal case capacity. These sabots are designed to fit in a barrel so they may not allow a bullet to sit deep enough to fit the cylinder. If seated so OAL is correct, it is possible that they will sit deep enough to affect the amount of powder it can hold. It seems every sabot maker makes them a little differently so there may be one that would work OK.
I don't recall ever reading anything about this but then I don't pay much attention to sabots, I'm a conical/round ball type of guy.